Episode 20 - Holotropic Breathwork and Psychonaut Reindeer
Transcript (transcribed programmatically - for all spelling/grammatical errors, blame the robots)
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Welcome to the MUstaSH room. I'm your host, David Ben. Find us online MUstaSHroom.com at MUstaSH room. We are sponsored by MUstaSH Brands. You can spell that MUSTASH.
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H thank you so much for being with us.
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We are re joined by Molly this time she talks to us about Holotropic breathwork.
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She's certified, spent a lot of years studying and perfecting the craft, has some really cool things to talk about, a way of getting to an altered state of consciousness without consuming any plant based medicine.
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So it's purely based on breathwork and body work.
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We also get a visit from my lovely wife Jill and we discussed the Amanita muscaria mushroom and how people and creatures have historically consumed it.
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For some interesting reasons and how it might be tide to more fiction and holiday specific fiction than you may already know, be on the lookout for upcoming entheogenic mushroom cultivation to consumption.
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Course is we're going to try to do more of those in partner.
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With some fitness organization.
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And send us an email info@mushroom.com if you have any questions or suggestions. Thanks again for being here. Enjoy this episode. You're in high demand these days.
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But let's just say that it's it's not in less any less demand, yes.
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That's awesome, so would you say that you're doing more work with the MDMA medicine or more work with the psilocybin these days?
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It's probably right down the middle, yeah?
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OK.
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Maybe a little.
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Bit weighing a little bit towards the psilocybin, yeah?
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It's been getting a lot of press lately.
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You know there was the Newsweek article and you know, there's always things popping up so I could see it being more popular just because it's touching the.
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Mainstream a little bit.
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Yeah, it's everywhere so.
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You know at first it was Michael Pollan's book. But now it's just in New York Times times mag.
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Seeing it's yeah, it's the thing for sure.
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Cool, well you know that's kind of the theme of this podcast, so I'm glad it's a thing.
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We'll embrace it as well.
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Everybody else but one of the one of the reasons that I wanted to have you back and and I give you a heads up holotropic breathing or holotropic breathwork you see it a lot when people talk about psychedelics.
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Enhanced forms of consciousness.
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Mr experiences all that stuff and I I spoke to real briefly about it and a buddy of mine, Sean, who's a yoga practitioner.
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He's also has some experience with Holotropic breathwork, but I really don't know the exact sequences or you know the in's and outs of the the.
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Type of work so I know you having experience with it, I was hoping you could give us a little insight into how that works and and what it actually yields in terms of effectiveness.
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Yeah, so uhm about as of two years ago I become certified as a holotropic breathwork facilitator.
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It took me 7 years.
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It's like 600 hours, right?
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Oh, it's uh, it's a lot of time, energy, money.
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Right?
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Yeah, it's not just a quick weekend.
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It's 7 weeklong modules.
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And then you have to apprentice and then you have to have extra experiences of your.
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Own so they they.
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Make sure they you know.
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Seven years wild.
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Have a good foundation.
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Yeah, I mean I was on the slow track 'cause I was working full time and then I was going to school so.
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But uhm, it's been the most by far valuable experience or to prepare me for the work that I'm doing.
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So they're using holotropic breathwork and let me just.
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Uhm, make it perfectly clear there's a lot of forms of breathwork out there there.
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There's many different, and they're not all one in the same so.
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So most of them have very specific criteria, so I just want to let people know that.
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That holotropic breathwork.
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Is not the same as any other work.
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OK.
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So, uhm, so it was developed by Stanislav Grof, who was a psychiatrist back in the 60s and 70s.
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He's still alive in his mid 90s.
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He had done a lot, a lot of facilitating LSD assisted psychotherapy. He had administered over two 2000 hours with clients and just.
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Uhm, you know he was really on the cutting edge of the research along with some other people, but when it went when it became illegal, he and his wife spent ten years.
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Really traveling the world, immersing themselves in different cultures, trying to find a way that they can induce the same.
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Experience as psychedelics and altered state of consciousness, and he coined the term holotropic state of consciousness.
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Holotropic is means moving towards whole wholeness.
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OK.
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So moving towards wholeness, and the reason he coined that term is because there's many.
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Forms of altered state of consciousness that aren't necessarily in a healing context.
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You can have an altered state of consciousness.
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By ingesting toxins you can you know there's a lot of ways that aren't necessarily intentionally meant for healing, so he termed holotropic.
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Uhm, moving towards wholeness holotropic breathwork so uhm, I think it's been 3540 years and he and his wife spent ten years developing this technique that incorporates the breath provocative music.
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OK.
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There's some very distinct ways in which a skilled facilitator can work with the person somatically.
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So providing some resistance for the person to push against to catalyze a somatic uhm?
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Breakthrough there's.
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So the body, the body is much more involved in.
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This project OK?
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Yes yes.
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So unlike psychedelics, there's some actual.
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It can be quite cathartic if you go to holy Tropic Breathwork module, which is where people go to get trained, but also the public can go you.
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You can walk into that room and go Oh my God, what is happening?
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There people screaming.
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You know it can be quite dynamic.
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So it's that's how it might.
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It's quite different from other forms of inducing altered state to consciousness.
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Uhm, it's often done in a group.
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OK.
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The group aspect of it can be quite powerful, just bearing witness to each other.
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Uhm, the form is such that people split up into pairs, and it's quite fascinating and magical how that actually happens.
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And and people will tell you, Oh my God.
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It was so bizarre I ended up.
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With this person and.
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I ended up realizing I went.
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To the same high school.
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Or, you know, it's just quite synchronistic.
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But it's done.
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In pairs, so you have a sit.
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That's there by your side.
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The session itself is anywhere between 2 hours and 15 minutes and three hours, so it's.
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Not a quick.
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15 minutes of breeding.
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Uhm, there's there's an introduction and an orientation before everyone starts just talking about some of the history and the form.
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But it it's done, uhm, usually in a group people are in pairs and one person will breathe and the other person will sit and the sitter.
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Is UM?
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There and being present for the person and and meeting that person supporting that person in any way they possibly can so.
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That's why they're using Holotropic breathwork in some of the programs like CIS and maps.
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OK.
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To train future psychedelic.
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Therapist, because it's it's the closest experiential piece that they can get because it's illegal to use substances.
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So plant based medicine without being a factor they can still get it.
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Yeah, so without using substances, the whole topic BREATHWORK is the closest that they could come to the form which they're training people to use to sit for people when the substances become legal.
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So it's a one to one ratio between sitter and person taking the OR person doing the.
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Yeah, and then you.
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Have facilitators depending on how big the.
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Group is.
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But there's certified facilitators there the sitters.
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In this.
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Don't engage in the somatic work.
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OK.
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That kind of takes a lot of skills.
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It's very nuanced.
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Uhm, so it's the facilitator that would engage in helping release somatic blockages.
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Contractions, that sort of thing.
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So kind of like a yoga instructor if you will.
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If you need to adjust your pose or or something like.
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That they kind of oversee.
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Yeah, a little bit.
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Oversee the room a little bit.
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Yeah, that you.
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Kind of walk around and and people might call you over and and just.
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Engage and then you you kind of use intuition like well maybe.
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What if I?
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What if I kind of apply?
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Meet your resistance in this and.
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In this area and the person pushes, you know, uses the facilitator push against, and sometimes it can get quite quite dynamic.
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Wow, and that's a I guess you have to have a lot of trust too with your sitter or your facilitator because of the semantic element you know, whereas with the other psychedelic experience it's much more cerebral.
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Yeah, it's much more hands off, literally, and so there's a whole module that's on the body.
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Work piece so you really.
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You you learn to see what the person might need, you learn.
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How to facilitate?
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That peace and touch in this realm of altered states of consciousness is very.
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Very precarious, you have to really, really know what you're doing, and yet you know that those are the boundaries that can get crossed really easily, not even intentionally so.
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You have to be really careful about asking permission and communicating with the person as you are working with them, because touch in this realm, whether it's.
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With substances or otherwise can really, uhm.
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Re traumatize someone if it's not done.
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In a skillful
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Way you could talk to people you can read.
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Some of graph stuff.
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I mean anything can.
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Happen in.
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Breathwork it, it's pretty, I mean the the difference is there's.
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OK.
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An off switch.
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So you can titrate the experience a bit more as the person, whereas with substances 1.
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There's no, there's no turning back, you kinda.
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You know you're along for the ride, you gotta write it out with the breathwork you can use your breath to modulate it and so sometimes.
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People it takes.
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Experiencing the terrain and trusting the terrain to really understand how deep you can go, but some people who are quite the Psychonauts, would tell you.
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That they've had just as strong and powerful experiences with the breathwork as they have with psychedelics.
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So the.
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The potential is there.
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Now when you when you screen people to work with do you?
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Do you have extra physical considerations or or things that you take into account?
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Yeah yeah yeah, you know there's you have to be careful cardiovascular issues because the breathing can increase heart.
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OK, like like what?
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You know blood pressure, heart rate.
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You know retina.
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You know issues with the eyes.
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Anything where a bit buildup for pressure could be a problem.
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You have to be careful with breath works, so there are definitely contraindications OK.
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OK, and how?
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How long does it take before you actually enter the mystical experience?
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You said two to three hours or two hours and 15 minutes to three hours total.
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Does it take that long to actually get into that state, or is that the?
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Full come up and come down.
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Well, yeah.
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It's there's no guarantee.
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First of all, you're going to have a mystical experience.
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OK.
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It you know, it's just.
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It, uhm, there's no guarantees there.
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Unlike with substances, which kind of can breakthrough defenses, some people will do breathwork and say nothing happened or they just can't let go.
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'cause it's in a group setting.
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You know the group Ness can add a component to it some.
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People they'll say they're out.
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And often gone in 15 minutes after the music starts and they start breathing.
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OK.
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Other people you know, they might say I didn't really have.
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I didn't appreciate the potential of the experience until my 5th breath breathwork session.
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It just all depends.
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OK, so it's a little little less reliable or a little less consistent as opposed to a substance where.
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Everybody response is different.
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Yeah, you know, yeah it's a it's a little.
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You can just toss it out.
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Yeah, people will use voice and sound and that's what I mean.
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It can be much more dynamic.
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OK.
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They can move around a lot more.
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It's usually done on a on a futon mat on the.
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Floor and and there's pillows and blankets everywhere so as a sitter and as a facilitator you're attending to the person safety, so they might be.
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Starting to hit the floor or something and you're putting pillows under or they start might start moving around.
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I mean, people have had have actually experienced that their re experienced their own birth, it it's quite fascinating.
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Some of the experiences people have had come so it can get very dynamic, much more so than you would see in most psychedelic sessions, yeah.
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If somebody out there was to to look into working with somebody with holotropic breathwork, would you say if they don't have that certification that you have all the labor intensive training that they should not work with that person?
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Or is there a sub certification or something that might show?
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They have enough experience.
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If a person is not certified by the Grof transpersonal training organization, they can't call it.
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Holy Tropic breath.
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OK.
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They could call it transform or you know they can call it something else.
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But if someone is calling it holy Tropic, breathwork.
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They they are supposed to be, you know, UM, certified.
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OK.
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Yeah so yeah.
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Well and with the music with the music that they play is there?
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I know with my psychedelic experiences and with ours there were a lot of instruments and not a lot of vocals where you could actually make out what they were saying.
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Chanting things like that.
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Is it similar with the breath here OK?
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Yeah yeah, the only difference is is that there's a very distinct trajectory in the holy Tropic breathwork.
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Session and it's broken up into three parts, so the first hour is you're kind of building up the energy.
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It's very percussions drums.
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It's kind of getting it's very vibrant and then it'll get epic.
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There will be kind of a breakthrough and so it's following.
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It's meant to carry you through this experience.
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So that the second hour is kind of epic and more like movie track type music, and then the last hour it kind of tapers and bring you brings you down and it's much more.
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Subtle and a little bit more relaxing, so you're kind of going through this rock this journey so the music should the trajectory of the music is much.
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Different yeah yeah.
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OK, that's cool.
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Yeah, I figured it would have some sort of accompanying playlist, so that's that's interesting.
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Yeah, and you'll never hear the same playlists twice.
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I mean, there's there's a whole week that's dedicated to creating it to the music.
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There's a whole module, and there's a whole module on the body work so that there's a lot of nuances in training.
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It's not just slapping together a bunch of, you know, just soundtracks.
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It's there's quite a.
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There's an art to it.
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Yeah, I've read and Grof name pops up everywhere.
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When you read about psychedelics, but I was reading that the certification that you have and I you know I'm not sure it's the same exact one.
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Yeah, yeah.
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600 hours of training mandatory and that's really exhaustive. So seven years 600 hours. I you have to really respect the art.
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In practice so.
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That's very cool.
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Yeah, you can't.
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You can't get certified.
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They won't let you certify in in less than two years like you can't.
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OK.
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You can't go faster because part of it is exploring your own inner.
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Transformation as you're going through the training 'cause it can be quite provocative.
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It can bring up things and, and it's not a guarantee you're going to pass the certification.
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There's some people where.
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You have to go through a 2.
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Week kind of certification process at the end of all the requirements, and that's where you kind of get really assessed.
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And it's it's kind of.
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It's not, uh, a given yeah, yeah.
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OK cool I yeah one of these days I'll have to I I don't know if you do seminars or like how do you?
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How do you approach it?
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But I'd like to.
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I'd like to see you know how it goes down and and you know, see if it can can work for me.
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Yeah, actually there is a nonprofit that we're just launching that I'm I'm helping with.
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It's called the graph legacy project.
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Oh cool.
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And they're going to have two tracks.
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Uhm, they're going to.
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Have a breathwork track where people can engage with.
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What what's the equivalent of holotropic breathwork?
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And then there's going to be the psychedelic experience track, which is.
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Very experiential and and intended to actually.
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I hate to say train, but train people in.
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Like what maps is doing in CIS, but those programs are much less experiential that there's not a lot of actually sitting with people while they're going while they're in an altered state of consciousness, and most of it's very academic, very intellectual, so this would provide people.
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With an opportunity to to get trained in in this realm from a much more experiential place.
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Nice where is that taking place?
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Uhm, well I I don't know do you?
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And if it's not open to the public.
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We can talk privately, but I.
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Was oh cool alright?
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It is open to the public.
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There are certain pieces that are open like we're going to have a we we had a four day scheduled, a four day Breathwork retreat scheduled for October we but we cancelled because of COVID.
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Yeah, it's been shot, I'm sure.
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So there's going to be some opportunities where people can come and just experience.
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Holotropic Breathwork and get two breath works in in over the course of four days so I I can keep.
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You posted up.
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Yeah please.
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Yeah, but if people Google Grof legacy Project USA, they can join the community and be on the email list.
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Yeah, so if yeah.
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And if people are really, you know, if you're concerned about ingesting any kind of plant based medicine or you just have whatever reservation reservations, there's no medicine involved, so you know it's I guess a nice alternative.
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Exactly and and I used to when it was more accessible.
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Really encourage people to.
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If there was access to it in their community to go through a holy Tropic breathwork 'cause the form is very similar, there's a lot of the the principles that are similar, so it's a great entryway into the psychedelic realm.
00:19:33
For sure, yeah.
00:19:33
Very cool, I you mentioned music and I just I wanted to, uh, are you familiar with Gabriel?
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Roth I I just came across the music.
00:19:41
Yeah yeah, five rhythms?
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Or is it?
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5 rhythms.
00:19:45
Yeah, I haven't really delved into that, but apparently she has matched up life with five different distinct rhythms.
00:19:45
Yeah, yeah.
00:19:51
Yeah, she's been around for ages, David.
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Yeah, she was born in the early.
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40s I.
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Yeah yeah, so my my buddy at work he goes to Burning Man all the time and he he I was like give me somebody that you know is very heavy on instrumentals and like plays well with psychedelics.
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And he introduced me to Gabriel Roth.
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She's awesome.
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I was so smitten.
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Yeah, yeah.
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By going through the stuff she's done.
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Have you used her at all in any other?
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Any of her work?
00:20:17
Uhm, you know there's others that are more kind of popular.
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But yeah, if you go to, uh, breathwork, you'll you'll see her music inserted here and.
00:20:26
There for sure, yeah.
00:20:27
Can you make any like overall doesn't have to be specific to holotropic breathwork, but can you make any suggestions for those of us that are, you know, looking for somebody that has psychedelic, friendly music or playlist?
00:20:39
Yeah, Byron Metcalf is a big one.
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OK.
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He he's a.
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He's quite popular.
00:20:47
UM Mark Seelig is another popular sort of, UM, oh, Lisa Gerrard from the Dead Can Dance.
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Uhm, she's she's amazing.
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She's a vocalist, but it's again.
00:21:00
There's no lyrics, sure.
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She's one of my favorites.
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Nothing to nothing to draw into, no vocals or anything to get consumed by.
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Boy is she.
00:21:06
Yeah, nothing.
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You're going to probably associate.
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With she did a lot of the music for Whale Rider.
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Remember that movie?
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That's a that's an old.
00:21:14
That's an old one, but Lisa Gerrard is is a big one.
00:21:18
OK, great.
00:21:19
Uh, yeah, there's some.
00:21:22
Oh God, you're you're putting me on.
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The spot but.
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Sorry I should have given.
00:21:24
Those are some.
00:21:25
You a heads up.
00:21:27
Wait, I can I can pull up my playlist?
00:21:29
Spotify as I'm looking here, uhm?
00:21:34
Karunesh is a group you know that's another uhm.
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Popular one Steven Halpern uh?
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Let me say not Macy Gray.
00:21:44
Yeah, Lisa Gerrard.
00:21:48
Peter Kater, there's some piano kind of cello music.
00:21:52
Peter Kater is one of those, uhm.
00:21:56
Sylvia Nikash she's a she's a great one.
00:22:00
OK.
00:22:00
Ah yeah, God, I could go on and on.
00:22:02
No, that's that's a good.
00:22:04
That's a good list.
00:22:05
I'll I'll make sure that I include those in the show notes, but that gives us a handful to to run with.
00:22:10
Then there's a lot of Native American music that that's really nice to Joanne Shena Shenandoah.
00:22:16
OK.
00:22:17
She's another one.
00:22:18
But yeah, some of the native music.
00:22:20
Can be can go really.
00:22:21
Well, Michael Hoppe is another one.
00:22:23
Yeah, music is a music so powerful.
00:22:27
Component to this this work, it can really it's meant to be.
00:22:30
A carrier wave.
00:22:32
And it it can also bring up things with people you know.
00:22:35
If we say in breathwork, like if you didn't like the music and it's activating you that way, then kind of use that kind of, you know.
00:22:41
OK, there's something about it that's triggering.
00:22:43
Yeah, yeah, that's kind of look into, you know, what is that and work?
00:22:47
With the trigger.
00:22:49
The the key is, it shouldn't be a distraction.
00:22:52
And so that's why I'll say to people if if the music isn't working and you know.
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I've had people say.
00:23:00
You know there'd be piano and they're like, Oh my God, can you turn the piano off?
00:23:03
I used to play piano as a kid and my.
00:23:05
Piano teacher is.
00:23:06
Coming up, it's just so there's you know.
00:23:09
Sometimes people have associations with just.
00:23:11
That and you don't want.
00:23:13
It to be that whole focus.
00:23:15
So yeah.
00:23:16
Sure, how.
00:23:17
How much integration are you doing?
00:23:19
Like with the holotropic breathwork?
00:23:21
Is it consistent with what you do with the other medicine?
00:23:24
Yeah, UM, it's really important and there is a whole art piece component to the holy Tropic Breathwork where people are invited to to go to an art space and create a mandala.
00:23:36
So it's quite potent.
00:23:39
The idea is that a lot of times getting images down it's not supposed to be an art piece, but just getting images down before you put words to the experience can be quite powerful.
00:23:51
So, uhm, you know that's the psyche that the psyche talks, and images and symbols and metaphors.
00:23:58
So it it's quite amazing what when you see someone mandala it's like it.
00:24:04
It can just blow your mind and they don't know where it came from sort of thing, but yeah, so there is a whole piece there and then.
00:24:12
In the breathwork.
00:24:14
Will usually have a closing circle each evening.
00:24:18
Or if it's a big big group, I mean some of these breath works are 80 people, 100 people, so they'll small.
00:24:23
They'll break up into smaller groups in the evening so that there's a way that you can put.
00:24:27
Voice and and.
00:24:29
People can bear witness to your experience, so you have the integration to big piece.
00:24:33
Wow, 80 to 100 people? That's got to.
00:24:35
Be intimidating for some.
00:24:37
Yeah, it's it's dumb.
00:24:39
That those are the big ones, those are.
00:24:41
The quote modules which.
00:24:42
OK.
00:24:43
They're not like, uhm, me holding.
00:24:46
A two day retreat.
00:24:47
These are the modules where future facilitators are going, but the public can also go and there and each module is themed.
00:24:55
So so one might be the holotropic principles.
00:24:58
So it's all about.
00:24:59
The principles of holotropic breathwork, another one might be.
00:25:02
The music so.
00:25:04
But yeah, there's it can draw quite a.
00:25:06
Quite a crowd.
00:25:07
For the people listening, I really I really appreciate you taking the time to educate us and now you know, we've we've learned a lot from you in the past and the couple episodes that you've been on.
00:25:17
So hopefully we can wrangle again for another one, but thank you so.
00:25:20
Sure, sure, yeah, and people can Google Holotropic Breathwork and and you and there's so much that comes up or stands subgraph.
00:25:20
Much for spending time with us.
00:25:28
Yeah, he's quite.
00:25:30
He's quite an institution.
00:25:32
Or a figure in this in this in this work, so for sure.
00:25:36
That's great, well Molly, I'll let you get back to your work with whatever you're up to, but we'll talk soon.
00:25:39
OK, OK.
00:25:41
Thank you so much.
00:25:42
OK, OK David.
00:25:44
Take care bye bye.
00:25:44
Bye bye.
00:25:47
And now it's time for some education as my lovely wife Jill joins us to talk about mushrooms and health.
00:25:54
You want my wisdom.
00:25:55
Very wise woman.
00:25:59
And then the babies lay.
00:26:00
Babies away we can't have the baby anywhere near us for a podcast.
00:26:03
No, it's it does not.
00:26:05
Does not work out.
00:26:06
Yeah, just so you know, we tried a couple times.
00:26:09
We failed both times.
00:26:12
And so we realized when the baby goes to bed, then we can try to record a podcast.
00:26:16
Or do anything at all.
00:26:18
Exactly, so here we are. And Brody's here, silently, hopefully and we're glad to be back post ternity episode #2.
00:26:27
Pose ternity
00:26:28
Eternity, so we I had my class I had my entheogenic mushrooms consumption cultivation class.
00:26:38
Woo Hoo.
00:26:39
Yes, at Dark horse.
00:26:41
Brazilian jujitsu in Denver, Co.
00:26:44
And we had about eight people there, which I thought was a decent turn out.
00:26:48
We drank some beers.
00:26:49
Which I felt was good for just the morale and the comfort level in the classroom.
00:26:55
You know there's no curriculum or any scholastic constraints.
00:27:00
It was fun, lasted about 3:00 and.
00:27:02
1/2 hours I'd.
00:27:03
Let's say that's a long time.
00:27:04
Yeah, and I constructed the curriculum on my own.
00:27:08
Basically I went through who I am, why I'm doing this, my qualifications for being a teacher.
00:27:14
You know my background as a stand up comedian.
00:27:16
My background as a Microsoft certified trainer yadda yadda yadda.
00:27:20
And also my experiences with psychedelics and I wanted to make sure that.
00:27:25
There was a trust level and I gained credibility because, you know, I'm not some scientist nerd.
00:27:29
You know somebody that's lived.
00:27:31
Like your real guy.
00:27:32
I lived a lot of this stuff.
00:27:34
So I did that and then I talked about entheogens, psychedelics and risks and.
00:27:40
So basically so entheogens mean psychedelic.
00:27:44
Is that just like a fancy word for it?
00:27:47
It really is and you know psychedelics, there's stigma connotations attached to that term, so I like to use entheogen, but it's essentially synonymous with psychedelic theology.
00:27:47
OK.
00:27:58
OK.
00:27:59
Is the study?
00:28:00
Of religion, and so there's a little bit of intertwined meaning there, but essentially it's the same thing.
00:28:06
That's interesting how.
00:28:09
How like the study of religion like theology and entheogen, is psychedelic?
00:28:17
So how was that connected?
00:28:19
Well, there's the same etymology there somewhere.
00:28:22
OK.
00:28:23
But essentially the you know this.
00:28:25
Think of God like there's a.
00:28:26
There's some sort of God.
00:28:27
Yeah, and depending on which substance you're working with, like there's mother, ayahuasca and people CD's and other greater powers in some instances. So there is a little bit of overlap.
00:28:34
OK.
00:28:38
Oh OK, I could see that where where, like in the past mushrooms have been used in religious ceremonies.
00:28:46
And psychedelics have been used not like just for fun.
00:28:50
You know, it has been used for like a purpose.
00:28:54
I mean definitely for fun.
00:28:55
I mean, well now I feel yeah, but I feel like most people assume that it's more tide to just fun and recreational versus.
00:28:55
The 60s and 70s for sure.
00:29:05
You know more of the religious or the healing aspect of it.
00:29:11
Well, the Native Americans have kind of.
00:29:15
They have the monopoly on peyote, E.
00:29:17
Or they're at least trying to keep the monopoly on peyote, E because of its.
00:29:22
It takes a lot of time to cultivate and you know they really.
00:29:27
It's something that they use in their religious ceremonies, so it's very sacred to them.
00:29:31
So for a Westerner to say hey, I just, you know they're Westerners too, but for somebody to be like, hey, I want to use your medicine in my Willy nilly ceremony or for my experimentation, it kind of trivializes their religion.
00:29:43
And their ceremony, and how they hold it.
00:29:46
Yeah, and I know 'cause.
00:29:48
Where did we learn about that?
00:29:50
Was it a?
00:29:50
Was it a documentary?
00:29:52
Was it an article?
00:29:53
Might have been a podcast or something where we.
00:29:54
Heard some of those.
00:29:55
Yeah, it was really interesting, because Payote, which is the cactus.
00:30:01
Yeah, mescalin.
00:30:02
Uhm, mescalin.
00:30:05
It only grows in certain areas which has been on native land.
00:30:11
In Texas, mostly in the states, there's an area in Texas that's plentiful with payote.
00:30:16
Yeah, and they're trying to preserve the original plants because you can re seed and grow it, but it doesn't.
00:30:24
It's not the same because it doesn't have the same like sacred.
00:30:31
I want to say.
00:30:31
Well, it's not, it's.
00:30:32
Not bad as much as it.
00:30:33
Is it's you know?
00:30:35
If people start harvesting it.
00:30:37
And start using it for things outside of their religious internal use.
00:30:42
There might be less of the supply for them to actually use for ceremony.
00:30:46
It just I don't know it takes away from their ability to kind of corner the market and control it as they see fit, and essentially because it's so sacred.
00:30:53
Then a lot of it decriminalized nature movements and stuff, or having exceptions for the Native Americans in priority because of the fact that it's so.
00:31:02
Taker, yeah, I mean we've already taken so much from our office like we.
00:31:05
I know, right?
00:31:06
We're about to celebrate Thanksgiving, which is just a huge dump on their on their history.
00:31:11
Christopher Columbus is already on the outs, so Thanksgiving might be next.
00:31:15
Man, are you even allowed to say his name?
00:31:19
Might have to go back in time.
00:31:19
Well, 'cause I don't 'cause what we just had in indigenous people day that was recent.
00:31:25
It used to be Columbus Day which now you don't say that anymore.
00:31:29
Yeah, I mean it is.
00:31:31
You know if you really look at it objectively, we're probably better off not celebrating him in in his entirety.
00:31:37
Yeah, oh totally.
00:31:37
You know, as a you know, as a A.
00:31:41
Explore and whatnot.
00:31:42
Maybe he had some accomplishments, but there's a lot of genocide and a lot of imperialism that we.
00:31:46
Can't really, yeah, I feel like anyone in that era that was kind of like your way of survival and your way of.
00:31:46
Get behind, you know.
00:31:54
You know conquering if you will just not how we are, how we operate today.
00:31:58
So getting back to the course I I wanted to convey, you know why I resorted to plant based medicine for my own therapy.
00:32:08
What it's done for me, how it manages my default mode network.
00:32:13
Yadda yadda yadda, and I think you know building up.
00:32:17
My relationship with the plant based medicine and using it respectfully, I think that gave a comfort level with the students to where OK, this guy may know what he's talking about, and you know we'll give him will hear him out.
00:32:30
Yeah, I mean and, and I think too for like even just men to be open to discussing challenges that they may have.
00:32:40
And you know letting them know that there's alternatives to look at instead of just traditional prescriptions and pharmaceuticals.
00:32:50
You know, to deal with things.
00:32:52
So yeah, I think you were leading by with a great example.
00:32:55
Yeah, and Andrew was there.
00:32:57
Felix was there.
00:32:57
Felix took a lot of photos and video.
00:33:00
Props to Felix.
00:33:01
Jackie was actually there with Andrew, so a lot of mushroom enthusiasts that have been on this podcast before made an appearance during the course and a lot of help from Felix and Andrew.
00:33:11
Just kind of, you know, throughout the course of the course.
00:33:15
But yeah, we talked about cultivation and all the different steps the sterilization require.
00:33:20
We looked at photos of different types of casing stages of fruiting, and you know all the different facets of mushroom cultivation.
00:33:30
We talked about dosing, micro macro, mini dosing, different ways to consume the risks.
00:33:31
He he.
00:33:37
You know how to do it?
00:33:39
Responsibly and to how to set your settings setting how to you know kind of nurture the environment.
00:33:45
Make sure you vet your peers.
00:33:47
All the big tenants of responsible use of psychedelics.
00:33:50
And finally we talked about integration and just the importance of making sense of your experience and having somebody that you feel comfortable.
00:33:58
With, you know, opening up and kind of making sure that whatever happened resonates positively and it's a sustained improvement.
00:34:08
So high level.
00:34:11
You take a dose, usually a high dose.
00:34:14
This is very high level.
00:34:15
Yeah, well well I'm just saying like for the for the audience.
00:34:20
For sure, yeah.
00:34:20
Uhm so you take a large dose, you retreat to yourself, is that correct?
00:34:28
Yeah, if I was to macro dose heroic dose or if I was to to go big.
00:34:32
OK.
00:34:35
Then yeah, I would establish a certain setting that was extremely comfortable so that I could fully surrender.
00:34:40
OK, so temperature noise like I'm ask like completely comfortable it goes.
00:34:48
They got a spa if you will.
00:34:50
Well, well.
00:34:51
I guess the things that I I pointed out the things that are really important to me and important for me to to convey to other people.
00:34:58
The people who are both the things on your mind, the devices available, anything that can interrupt your experience or cause anxiety or take your mind somewhere else.
00:35:09
You know, those are things that can really compromise both your set and your setting.
00:35:14
I mean, if you're with people that you don't feel comfortable with and.
00:35:18
You know something happens.
00:35:19
You'll internalize that, and it can completely ruin your experience.
00:35:22
OK.
00:35:23
So you really have to be mindful of your setting setting, so that was really something that we spent a lot of time on, and it's completely up to you.
00:35:29
You know, at the last minute if you feel like you're set.
00:35:32
When I say set, I mean your mindset.
00:35:34
If you don't feel like your mindset is adequate to really go deep, then you're better off not doing.
00:35:39
It and.
00:35:39
OK, so if you've got like a long list of chores or something, do the next day.
00:35:44
It's probably not the best time.
00:35:45
Yeah, or you know your kid is staying at, you know somebody elses house sleeping over at somebody's house, you know something like that where you don't have full control of the situation and there are factors that could cause you to doubt your circumstances.
00:35:59
OK, so that's that.
00:36:01
So you take your heroic dose you.
00:36:05
Shout out to Terence McKenna.
00:36:05
Are in your set your your in your set in your setting and you're enjoying it now.
00:36:10
The integration when does that come in?
00:36:12
Is that immediately like when you're like, oh, I start to feel normal again?
00:36:16
Or is that like the next day?
00:36:18
Is that by yourself?
00:36:20
Are you working that with someone like?
00:36:22
How do you put like personally integrate?
00:36:24
So the best way to do?
00:36:26
It if you have a relationship with the therapist is.
00:36:29
See if your therapist is open minded to psychedelics.
00:36:32
You know if your therapist says hey, I'm familiar with psychedelics, or I appreciate the space you can talk openly with them about doing plant based medicine and kind of have them act as the bookends for your experience.
00:36:43
So, uh, meet like like hour 5.
00:36:46
No, I mean, I don't think you.
00:36:47
Should look at it.
00:36:49
That way whenever you're ready.
00:36:50
I mean, you're going to jot stuff down.
00:36:52
Throughout your experience.
00:36:53
OK, so that was that's a good point.
00:36:56
Yeah, so I mean you, you know you don't want to be conscious of oh shoot, I have to remember this or I have to write stuff down so it has to be organic.
00:37:04
That's why if you have a trip sitter or somebody you know they can.
00:37:08
Jot things down for you that you audibly express to them.
00:37:11
Things like that, but essentially you're going to want to digest and fully allow things to resonate.
00:37:18
Once the experience is over, and so the timing is.
00:37:22
It could fluctuate, but you know it could be immediately once you're fully, you know, come down from the medicine, but it could be the next day.
00:37:30
It could last the entire next week, and it's it's a process that's kind of.
00:37:35
It's tailored to the extreme nature of your experience, I guess.
00:37:39
OK, no, that's that's a really good point.
00:37:41
And then I know you've actually done voice.
00:37:44
It's like you've done like videos into your phone during it too.
00:37:49
I don't know if you've ever gone back and.
00:37:50
Looked at those, but I mean I have.
00:37:53
Yeah, well you, you know you definitely you start to get creative and you start to think of things that you normally wouldn't and so you know sometimes you get really excited and you want to share things with the world.
00:38:05
So it's best that you have a mechanism to record that stuff.
00:38:08
So if you're doing it with a sitter which is always a good idea if you're new to the experience.
00:38:12
They can record that stuff for you and just take the responsibility away.
00:38:16
Or you can just shout into a voice recorder or whatever you know Alexa, take a note for me or something.
00:38:21
Oh yeah.
00:38:23
Just as long as you.
00:38:24
Don't expect to have a dialogue with Alexa.
00:38:27
That could be that could turn horribly if you're on a psychedelic experience, yeah, so yeah, that was, in a nutshell, very high level.
00:38:27
Would interesting.
00:38:35
And then I had resources so that people could go and you know, figure out how to make bulk casing or auger liquid culture soup to nuts start to finish with mushroom cultivation.
00:38:46
And then.
00:38:46
All kinds of publications and resources.
00:38:48
Doubleblind magazine and just things that are really good for people that are either new to this space or really want to go a little bit deeper to the existing space, yeah.
00:38:57
That's great.
00:38:58
So that was fun, and we I hopefully will have more of those I've been talking to Sean, who was on the podcast a couple times actually about maybe doing it with his yoga establishment, so fingers crossed, but we'll we'll keep it going.
00:39:13
And if anybody is interested, definitely email the podcast info at MUstaSH Room.
00:39:18
Com or info at MUstaSH brands com as always, MUstaSH MUSTH.
00:39:25
We also wanted to talk about a follow up from.
00:39:29
A previous episode I can't.
00:39:31
Remember were we together talking about it on the previous episode?
00:39:35
I feel like we always have a follow up and we forget to follow up, So what are you following up on?
00:39:38
Yeah, well.
00:39:40
OK, and Anita muscaria AKA flag Eric.
00:39:43
We talked about how it's kind of the most.
00:39:47
It's the most recognizable mushroom.
00:39:49
It's the Mario mushroom.
00:39:51
It's the mushroom that has the same color scheme as Santa Claus.
00:39:55
You know, there's a lot of fiction that's derived from this type of mushroom.
00:39:59
It's the the red cap.
00:40:00
With the white speckles.
00:40:02
Yeah, and it grows blunderful in Colorado apparently.
00:40:05
When I was in.
00:40:06
Telluride for the Mushroom festival.
00:40:09
A lot of the people on the floor a.
00:40:10
Came back with huge and Bonita mysterian mushrooms, huge.
00:40:13
As you when you.
00:40:14
Say huge, how big like the size.
00:40:16
Of your hands, fall down.
00:40:16
It could be like the CAP was like 5 inches in diameter.
00:40:20
That's a huge asthma.
00:40:21
Yeah, like a coffee can a little bit smaller than.
00:40:23
A coffee can. Wow, yeah.
00:40:24
Oh, and and then the shade of red varies, right?
00:40:28
It could be bright, or it could be like an orangey red.
00:40:30
Yeah, I would say the spectrum would be like just bright red too.
00:40:34
Who like a darker brick red?
00:40:37
OK, that's a good one.
00:40:38
Yeah, so in that spectrum, but it definitely has those white dots.
00:40:42
They almost look like zits.
00:40:43
It's kind of gross on there, but it lulls the right moles.
00:40:45
Now what about moles?
00:40:48
They're albino mills if you will, yes.
00:40:52
So Amanita muscaria, I have never consumed amanita muscaria.
00:40:57
Yeah, I've heard from Paul Stamets and some other people that are pretty well known in the space that it may cause stomach discomfort.
00:41:04
So I guess I'm being a little bit of a scaredy pants.
00:41:08
But I know Chris wants to try it, so it may happen, but ultimately it's supposed to cause some sort of hallucinogenic effect, some sort of psychedelic experience not akin to psilocybin, but still.
00:41:21
Kind of free.
00:41:22
OK.
00:41:23
And Anna, do we have data?
00:41:25
If people have died from taking this one?
00:41:27
No, I think I don't think the poison is that extreme.
00:41:30
I think it's more of just a digestive system issue, sort of.
00:41:33
Or has more based on how much you consume.
00:41:37
But I will.
00:41:39
We went to Telluride last year and we went to their farmers market and they were selling.
00:41:45
There was a mushroom stand and we found a dried bag of this mushroom and David was like.
00:41:53
Like Oh my God it's like the mythical you know creature and we grabbed some and we were talking with the guy and we're like how do you cook with this?
00:42:03
Because he was selling all culinary mushrooms and this was the only one that he had.
00:42:09
You know, on the spectrum if you will so.
00:42:12
On the spectrum.
00:42:12
So well, yeah, like the second, they'll expect spectrum, UM?
00:42:15
There you go.
00:42:17
So he said, and he kind of chuckled like, well, like, we're kind of talking the same language and he's like, well, because it's they're dried and you rehydrate them.
00:42:28
And then you can cook with them, but you do not want to drink the liquid as what he said.
00:42:33
And if you just think of all the science with it.
00:42:37
Psilocybin and no mycelium is how it grows.
00:42:40
Psilocybin is water soluble, so the psychoactive.
00:42:47
Element is in the water.
00:42:49
It's not in the mushroom itself, so when you rehydrate the mushrooms it pulls out the psychedelic.
00:42:57
So we can easily rehydrate these and cook with them.
00:43:01
It's the water that would then make you high.
00:43:04
Or give you the effect.
00:43:05
And in that book we bought from the Telerad Mushroom Festival, the Culinary mushroom book.
00:43:11
He talks about exactly how to prepare Amanita.
00:43:14
Muscaria to nullify any of those weird body effects or things that the average person wouldn't want to experience.
00:43:22
Exactly so.
00:43:22
And it was in the ceviche that he served, yeah?
00:43:26
Exactly so you can still like if you find these and you want to consume them, you know for.
00:43:33
You know for not those not the typical reason you can.
00:43:37
Well, I guess his wouldn't be dried out.
00:43:40
And if you found them fresh, I wonder how you would do that fresh.
00:43:43
Yeah, normally they're not going to be dried.
00:43:44
Maybe just boiled.
00:43:46
Maybe if you boiled them you know would pull out the toxin bugs.
00:43:48
Yeah, if you look online at on how to prepare, excuse me emanating muscaria mushrooms for com.
00:43:55
During use, there's a method.
00:43:56
To get rid of the toxins.
00:43:58
OK.
00:43:58
And again, we can't first hand speak for the toxins and what that means.
00:44:01
Yeah, I mean we've had done it, yeah?
00:44:03
So I may have a follow up episode, there's that follow up, promise again and.
00:44:08
Now we need to jot down the follow UPS.
00:44:10
Yeah, we need to have some show now it's Brody.
00:44:11
All right?
00:44:12
He's just sitting.
00:44:14
So yeah, the cool thing though is.
00:44:18
Dear for sometime and you may have heard this other people talk about it but.
00:44:23
Deer have specifically found this particular mushroom to be a nice little treat for them, reindeer specifically, and so if you think about.
00:44:34
The hallucinogenic hallucinogenic effects on a reindeer and how they have a fondness for emanated muscaria mushrooms.
00:44:41
Flying reindeer with Santa seems all that more plausible.
00:44:46
Based on this sort of reality.
00:44:49
What's the difference between a deer and a reindeer?
00:44:53
Means let's look that up.
00:44:53
Because, and I'm wondering because.
00:44:57
They grow in Colorado and there's deer in Colorado.
00:45:00
Is it just?
00:45:03
Here the main difference between deer and reindeer, which why is it spelled REIN?
00:45:04
OK.
00:45:09
Anyway, the main difference between deer and reindeer is that the deer is adapted to moderate climates whereas the reindeer is adapted to cold climates.
00:45:19
OK, so like more Northern Territory.
00:45:21
Yeah, like like a polar deer.
00:45:24
I like that, Oh dear.
00:45:25
Yeah, so it's a polar deer and so anyways?
00:45:27
OK.
00:45:29
Deer reindeer.
00:45:31
OK.
00:45:31
I'll just consider them interchangeable.
00:45:33
'cause we can call this Colorado deer.
00:45:35
You know they eat the same thing and.
00:45:37
It's so fat.
00:45:37
Sure, sure, yeah, it all sounds good.
00:45:39
OK.
00:45:40
So deer versus reindeer now you have that knowledge you can put that you can put that in your pocket.
00:45:42
I love it.
00:45:45
They like the Amanita muscaria and they actually.
00:45:49
They influence people to harvest their urine like reindeer herders and other people that were farming to harvest their urine so that they could harness those same effects.
00:46:00
The same hallucinogenic man.
00:46:02
I cannot see that work.
00:46:03
The same will say psychedelic effects that we're impacting the reindeer that we're consuming it.
00:46:09
Uhm, how are they collecting urine?
00:46:12
That's another good question.
00:46:13
I don't have that answer.
00:46:14
I don't believe there's a follow up for that.
00:46:15
There's no follow up that is proprietary information.
00:46:20
Definitely, so the reason that they were harvesting the urine.
00:46:26
And again we don't have the means that they used.
00:46:29
Oh, I think I just kind of jumped, uh.
00:46:30
Head so they found they the herders started collecting urine, testing it out to see if they could have the effects.
00:46:39
No, I think they just looked at the reindeer and the reindeer.
00:46:42
Let's see they have theirs.
00:46:44
It says here what happens to him?
00:46:44
But if they saw, but if they saw the reindeer eating the mushrooms, why didn't they just skip the urine and eat the mushrooms?
00:46:51
That's a good question too, and I don't have.
00:46:53
The answer to that either.
00:46:53
Then they'll follow up.
00:46:54
There's no follow up.
00:46:56
It says here that if they eat the fungie or fungi depending on which one you prefer, they behave and this is the reindeer behave, drunkenly, run about aimlessly and make strange noises.
00:47:07
Head twitching is also common, so maybe they saw this happen and they're like the only way I can harness the energy of these reindeer is to drink their ****
00:47:16
And lo and behold, it worked for them.
00:47:16
That one.
00:47:20
And we have some science and we have some really some terms that I still can't pronounce that explain why the urine is so plentiful with things that make you feel drunken.
00:47:30
Actually go back to that article so.
00:47:31
Oh, OK.
00:47:33
It says rain.
00:47:34
OK, so these mushrooms have long been used by men, but are known to be toxic, so they try to avoid eating them directly, whereas the reindeer can eat them without any harm.
00:47:48
And then they observed their effects.
00:47:50
So they were so gung ho on getting high that they're like, let's drink some ****
00:47:56
Yeah, and that's amazing that the reindeer can just eat as much as they want.
00:47:59
Completely immune, they can just get a little drunker
00:48:02
Yeah they have.
00:48:03
You know, different different ways of process it.
00:48:06
That's crazy, so there's the science behind this, and basically it says the removal of the carboxyl radical from ibotenic acid, that the Amanita muscaria contains results in the psychoactive molecule maximal or muscimol.
00:48:24
This transformation of molecules is driven by the metabolic process of decarboxylation no.
00:48:33
Decarboxylation, however, the liver is not very efficient at this process. So about 85% of the ingested ibotenic acid leaves the body unaltered via urine.
00:48:44
Your pest contains five times the amount of the drug that your body is capable of absorbing. So basically what that means is you don't really get much out of consuming the actual mushroom, you only get 15% of the psychoactive components. The other 85% leaves your body in your **** so if you were to drink that.
00:49:05
If you consume that urine, it says, uh?
00:49:09
See do if you've consumed the mushroom.
00:49:12
You can **** into a bottle and hand it over to your buddy who drinks it and becomes a temporary drug mule.
00:49:19
Then later on he ****** into the same bottle hands over the next person in line, blah blah, blah, essentially five or six times.
00:49:27
It says so.
00:49:28
Once it's activated in the urine, it becomes 85% potent.
00:49:34
And it continues that way essentially, so it's a.
00:49:38
But is that a human centipede of psychoactive urine?
00:49:42
I've got that self episode.
00:49:44
That's crazy.
00:49:45
I mean, I have to point out it would be it will if we don't do this, but drinking your urine is not good. Or drinking someone's urine is not good.
00:49:56
That's why one of the reasons we have you here is to tell us what we should put in our bodies.
00:50:00
So tell us why urine is not good to put in.
00:50:02
Our body, even though it's already in our body, so your kidneys filter out.
00:50:08
Toxins, so anything you eat, anything you drink it goes through your your kidneys and it filters out these toxins that are then excreted from your body.
00:50:10
OK.
00:50:21
So some things are absorbed.
00:50:23
Some things are not.
00:50:24
OK, for instance like.
00:50:27
Artificial sugars your body can't absorb them.
00:50:30
They literally just pass through your body and.
00:50:32
As diary.
00:50:33
Or in your urine, like your your ink ended up like smelling sweet, uhm, don't drink it.
00:50:34
Oh, OK.
00:50:41
It's the antithesis of asparagus.
00:50:43
So by drinking urine that has filtered all the toxins 'cause your body wants to eat and utilize the resources you're getting, you're giving it.
00:50:53
But there are things that it can't absorb, or things that it doesn't want to absorb, so it passes through.
00:50:59
So by drinking the waste.
00:51:02
Your urine you are consuming these toxins that your body explicitly intended to remove so it can lead to kidney damage.
00:51:11
Kidney disease.
00:51:12
These as those organs need to work harder to handle the increased concentration of toxic substances.
00:51:20
So every time you keep drinking urine that has been like, let's say you keep drinking your own urine over and over again like that's straight up kidney failure.
00:51:30
Yeah, so it just keeps compounding the amount of toxins that you have in like compound interest in the bank.
00:51:36
Good thing for money.
00:51:37
Bad thing for your kidneys.
00:51:38
Boom yeah wow.
00:51:40
So OK.
00:51:41
The moral of the story is if you can't find any other way to get.
00:51:44
Why we shouldn't say hi if you can't find any other way to alter your state of consciousness using emanator.
00:51:50
Muscaria and you have to resort to pee.
00:51:54
Just think about what impact that's going to have on your liver.
00:51:58
Yeah, I mean now if you're stranded on a boat in the ocean, your pee is less of a toxin than the salt water.
00:52:01
Hey yeah.
00:52:05
So drink pee but.
00:52:06
Boom and if it happens to have eminent mysterial, then it's a bonus.
00:52:09
Then you might not.
00:52:11
Actually be floating in the ocean.
00:52:13
Oh, that's funny.
00:52:15
So did you have any other wisdom for us bouette?
00:52:18
I think I think we educated the.
00:52:20
Audience pretty well today.
00:52:21
I think that was enough education for one for one episode.
00:52:24
You have to tune in next time.
00:52:25
******* hey alright thanks bye.